Agenda item

The Panel was asked to consider and comment on the report from the West Mercia Police and Crime Commissioner (PCC) providing a summary of the initial findings from the West Mercia Fire and Rescue Governance Consultation which had finished on 11 September 2017.

At its last meeting, the Panel considered the PCC's draft initial business case for the joint governance of Police and Fire and Rescue services in Hereford and Worcester and Shropshire and Telford and Wrekin.

Following the initial comments made by the Panel, the PCC was invited to return to Panel with final proposals prior to the submission to the Secretary of State on 1 October 2017; which had been extended to 9 October 2017.

A Report from the Chief Executive on behalf of the PCC was provided to the Panel outlining an initial analysis of the Consultation results.  The Panel was advised that the Report didn’t include the PCC’s formal response to the Consultation, which would be published in due course. 

The Chairman invited the Chairman of Shropshire and Wrekin Fire and Rescue Authority and Vice-Chairman Hereford and Worcester Fire Authority and the Officer from the Police Strategy and Reform Unit, Home Office to address the Panel.

Shropshire and Wrekin Fire and Rescue Authority (Councillor Eric Carter)

Councillor Carter suggested that as result of various recent discussions, he thought it was important to look for agreement on a local basis for collaborative working as suggested by the Fire Minister.  He urged the PCC to take into consideration the views of the constituent authorities, none of which were in favour of the proposal for a Police, Crime and Fire Commissioner and take into account that they represented a large number of people.  He also circulated a newspaper article from the Shropshire Star, which had run an online poll to ask if readers agreed with the PCC running the fire service. 22% said yes and 78% said no.  He further made the point that only two local authorities in the Country were actually in favour of the proposal.

Hereford and Worcester Fire Authority

Councillor Tuthill highlighted various examples of collaboration between the Police and Fire services eg the new Bromsgrove Police and Fire Station, new stations at Malvern, Worcester, Evesham and the Headquarters of the Fire Authority which were moving to the West Mercia Police Headquarters at Hindlip, Worcester which would result in some economies and integration of control systems eventually. There had already been significant savings from joint working: in 2010 expenditure was £32m and was now £31.7m.  Councillor Tuthill suggested that services should continue to collaborate further and then the situation should be reviewed in 3 years' time.

Officer from the Police Strategy and Reform Unit, Home Office (Jonathon Scanlan)

The Officer explained how:

·         Police and Crime Commissioners (PCCs) could make proposals to take over fire authority governance responsibilities within their police area;

·         PCCs prepared a business case and must consult with constituent fire authorities;

·         The Secretary of State decided on proposals;

·         If a constituent local authority did not support the proposal, the Secretary of State must arrange for an independent review of the proposals.

During the discussion, the following main points were made:

·         The concern remained about how the projected £4m savings would be made, especially as there was now the added complication of the effect that alleviating the public sector pay cap would potentially have on the capacity to make those savings.  The PCC confirmed that further detail of the financial appraisal was currently being worked up and acknowledged that any increase in pay would have a resultant cost pressure

·         As Shropshire and Wrekin Fire and Rescue Authority had already identified £2m worth of savings, it was suggested that there would be an element of double counting in respect of the £4m projected savings. The PCC reiterated that the analysis of the Consultation was still taking place and that there would be options for doing things in different ways

·         The Panel was keen to understand its role in the formal process of the Consultation but as the PCC advised, its role was as stated in the Panels terms of reference which was to scrutinise the actions of the PCC.  The PCC confirmed that he was happy to respond to the Panel's questions but wasn’t necessarily expecting an opinion from the Panel as such. If it was decided that Business Case would be submitted to the Secretary for State, the Panel could consider the case afterwards if deemed necessary

·         The PCC was on record as saying that he would decide whether to submit the Business Case based on the results of the Consultation. It was pointed out that although 61.9% of respondents who completed the questionnaire were in favour of the proposal this was in fact 792 out of 1279 residents and didn't take into account the constituent authorities' responses, who were not in  support of the proposal and represented larger numbers of people than the Consultation respondents

·         The PCC was urged to think carefully before moving forward with the Business Case, especially as joint working was already happening.  The PCC suggested that there were examples of collaboration of front line services but not the supporting functions

·         It was suggested that a better first step would be to consider merging the two fire authorities and then considering the governance at a later date

·         The PCC reassured the Panel that the Consultation had followed and was compliant with the Cabinet Office principles and that he would take the decision very seriously and would be considering all views before making the final decision

·         On reflection of the Consultation Process, the PCC remarked that double election purdah and two new Fire Authority Chairmen who had not been involved in the early discussions had been unhelpful to the process.  It was important to improve things whilst continuing to  protect the public; it was not a merger but a strategic alliance with two Fire Authorities

·         As the enabling services for West Mercia were allianced with Warwickshire, any changes would need to be discussed with Warwickshire

·         The PCC confirmed that a huge weight would be given to the response of the constituent authorities

·         A member pointed out to the Panel that at its last meeting, it had discussed the draft Business Case at length and the PCC had confirmed that the analysis of the Consultation was currently being carried out and a great deal of work to be was still to be done. It was therefore unfair for the Panel to expect that the final Business Case would be available and discussed at the meeting when it was not ready. It was suggested that the focus of the Panel should be to ensure that front line services were protected, money was being saved and that there was joined up working and as that appeared to be the case, the Panel should be offering its support to the PCC

·         It was suggested that since the Government was encouraging collaboration between all the blue light services, consideration would need to be given to collaboration with the ambulance service.  The PCC responded that better joint working with the ambulance service was desirable and whilst a duty to collaborate existed,  it was not part of the current consideration

·         A suggestion was made that as the final Business Case was work in progress and the previous draft scrutinised by the Panel at its June meeting was based on discussions with previous Fire Authority Chairmen, the Panel was unable to scrutinise the current plans.  The PCC acknowledged that he had engaged with Fire Authorities at the beginning of year, but was now working on responding to the Consultation prior to deciding whether to submit a Business Case

·         It was noted that the financial details were still "in hand"

·         If a constituent local authority did not support the proposal, the Secretary of State must arrange for an independent review of the proposals.  The Panel were advised that this could take up to 6 months

·         In response to the concern about how the PCC would find time to do this job, the PCC advised that the Police was run by the Chief Constable and he wouldn’t be considering it if he didn’t believe that the Service could be delivered to a high standard

·         It was proposed that in the light of the detailed Consultation responses and in particular the opposition of the constituent authorities, the Panel did not consider that the case for change was made out and recommended that the Police and Crime Commissioner withdrew his proposals in relation to fire governance

·         On being put to the vote the motion was carried by 11 votes in favour, two against with one abstention.